By now you've probably heard about Senator Elizabeth Dole's ad attacking her opponent Kay Hagen as being an Atheist despite the contrary and having taught Sunday school. But here's the bigger issue for me, "What's wrong with being an Atheist anyway?" Are we Atheists (I'm not technically an Atheist but in the category as a nontheist) somehow unAmerican? The suggestion from Dole is that being an Atheist is anti-American.Yet radical Christians like herself often say that there shouldn't be a religious test for political office and for judicial nominations. They love the double-standard. They love to only focus on the second half of this section in the first amendment to the Constitution highlighted. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Their defense of this double standard is usually something like this, "Well Christianity is the truth!!" And yet no one can in no empirical or legal way prove this to be so.
TPJ: In other news: Another conservative adds his name to the long list of other conservatives backing/voting for Barack Obama:
(CNN) — Former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein told CNN's Fareed Zakaria this week he intends to vote for Democrat Barack Obama on Tuesday.
Duberstein said he was influenced by another prominent Reagan official - Colin Powell - in his decision.
"Well let's put it this way - I think Colin Powell's decision is in fact the good housekeeping seal of approval on Barack Obama."
---End of Transmission---
68 comments:
There's nothing wrong with being an atheist.
We live in a country that is intolerant of nonbelievers.
And look at what those crazy-ass evangelicals have done to our political discourse.
PS. Are you feeling confident yet?
Can we start to relax?
I'm going to buy a bottle of champagne for Tuesday night.
Atheists and agnostics are the only two groups of people in the US against whom discrimination is not only expected, but acceptable.
A black man may become president. A woman may become president. In short just about anybody may become president, but I guarantee that, in my lifetime, an person refuses to profess a faith in God will never achieve the nation's highest office.
As an agnostic, I believe that a Muslim has a greater chance of becoming President than another person such as myself.
There shouldn't be anything wrong with being Atheist, but there are a lot of intolerant people out there.
Here is my take on it; I don't care if your Christian or Muslim or Atheist, as long as you are a good person and make good decisions and have good morals/ethics. But hey, that is the smart thing to do and why would anyone want to do that?
All I can say is Thank God I'm and Atheist :-) I live in Australia where we had a Prime Minister who was, and always maintained he was, an atheist.
Whats wrong with being Atheist? how about going to hell when you die? thats a scary thought. Read the Bible! Its all in there.
Jesse Wilder
www.internet-anonymity.net.tc
I'm an atheist, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Yet, I think kvatch is wrong - there's a chance that an atheist could be president in our lifetimes. I think fear of non-believers will die off in a generation or two for the most part. Seriously, when belief in the supernatural is a requirement for office, but belief in aliens gets you laughed at in a debate (see Kucinich), this country has a serious problem.
I live in North Carolina and after having to watch her disgusting ads for the last month, I wouldn't vote for her if you held a gun to my head.
Before the attack on atheists, Dole played ads that used random Kay Hagan soundbites that were taken completely out of context.
The very sad truth about this is, Religion and Politics no longer know separation. Anyone who will argue against this only has to look outside the capital building where they have placed the 10 Commandments. The separation of church and state was enforced to stop discussions such as these from affecting politic decisions and figureheads. I was raised in a Catholic home from the time of my birth until I chose a different path of belief, one that does not recognize the traditional 'God' that most persons believe. Whether or not you are a christian, Muslim, catholic, baptist or Atheist should be irrelevant to the specific tasks it requires for you to hold office as president of the United States. What i find equally horrifying, is the claims these evangelicals take that their god is a loving, charitable, caring beings that has a deeper love for what he creates than any of us can dream of, yet his loyal 'worshipers' ignore the love of humanity, and embarrasses, deface, physically and emotionally and mentally abuse those that do not think the same. Sometimes these actions lead to worse things, and they attempt to excuse these actions with 'God's Plan'. These people are despicable, inhumane, an an embarrassment to our society. To allow these individuals to take office and make decisions for a country of 'non-believers' and lead us to think they have our 'best interests' at heart, makes me sick.
I'm sure there are currently a few non-theists in office right now. I actually think one or both of the current candidates for president are closet-atheists. Of course they would never admit this because it would obviously ruin their chances. Obama's mother was an atheist and I just don't think those ties are severed that easily. If all of this we're true it would be a testament to his tolerance and dedication. Obama 08.
I live in NC and have been listening to both candidates try and distance themselves from atheism and i'm pretty disgusted. but then again what's new.
harold fowler> I'm sorry but I cannot in good conscience use a book's (granted very beautiful) moral tales to further my own personal agenda. It's amazing to see so many use this book to spread their own disgusting agenda.
I enjoy being an atheist, however I am the only one in my family. It is frightening how much they want to control other people's lives and inject their own beliefs into the lives of others (see: abortion, gay marriage, etc.) What does it matter to you? Why not let people live their lives as they see fit? If they're not bothering or hurting anyone, what do you care?
Sigh. I just wish the Evangelicals would listen to people different than themselves with an open heart, as we try attempt to with them. There's no speaking to many of them in any sort of rational way.
This is why we will be having many state constitutions changed for the sole purpose of discriminating PEOPLE :(
(p.s. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin- in fact, most of the founding fathers, were athiests)
I agree with your comment re: the Constitution but you're looking in the wrong section. The First Amendment merely states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;", it says noting concerning religious tests. You could argue that a religious test is an establishment of religion but you wouldn't need to go that far. Article VI already does this for you. Here's the pertinent passage from Article VI, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
Sadly enough, I have often felt the need to hide the fact that I am athiest. I know I should not feel ashamed, but it seems like everyone likes to attack athiests. I have morals, just because I am athiest does not mean I am immoral. Sometimes, I feel that I have more morals than some people who call themselves Christians. yet, I still get the nonapproving glares and talks from others.
And to all of those religious people, even if we were to go to hell because we don't believe in God, what does that matter to you? Our supposed afterlifes should have nothing to do with how we are viewed right now.
I hate when people think or refer to those who do not believe in god or practice religion as "non-believers" or "without faith". I think god is a metaphor and I don't happen to use that metaphor. I believe in many people and I have lots of faith and beliefs. I think belief is a good thing and brings comfort and strength no matter what you believe in. But I think worship is usually a bad thing and causes many very big problems, and I think that some people will use the strength of belief as a means for an end that is not consistent with the beliefs.
I'm curious, an atheist cannot go to Christian heaven but they can go to Christian hell?
I'm not an atheist. Does anyone respect that?
I live in North Carolina, too. Dole's attempts to win over Hagan are sick and twisted, but what scares me even more is that the area I live in seems to support her anyway. It's obviously a desperate attempt to win in a tight election - I can't picture that woman caring about anything anyway, the way she cared about her Senatorial duties - but people here gobble her up.
What amazes me even more than this, though, is the lack of negative, local news coverage in response to Robin Hayes' remarks as he runs for the House in my district. For those of you who haven't seen the quote he said at the McCain rally in Concord: "Liberals hate real Americans that work and accomplish and achieve and believe in God."
Just as scary, eh?
Yeah.
I think religious groups can help
individuals in need, which is
good. On the other hand, if
individuals have other interests
American values allows them
that freedom.
thanks from tony at:
http://www.ntopics.com
Yet another blog about the righteousness of being a persecuted atheist. Good for you... You have a blog and can use the same reductionist rhetoric as your enemies. If you didn't have the insight to notice all of it is bull... But you don't seem to have the perception to figure out when a politician is creating FUD to win an election.
Or worse yet - you know exactly when they are creating FUD but you are just as evil and create your own.
Once again someone on the Internet is raising the "Christian Question" again.
Unfortunately our country has adopted this idea that Christianity is the only religion, even though our right to any religion is expressly written in the constitution. There is nothing in the constitution that says that a Christian is better than a Muslim or a Buhdist, and there definitly is nothing saying that an athiest cannot hold a public office. Seperation of Church and State People...This is not a Theocracy.
I think the general consensus in the comments here is that as long as you are a good person, it shouldn't matter what you "identify" as. Well guess what? That's exactly what Unitarian Universalists believe too :) Check them out sometime: http://uua.org
Couldn't resist,
Mike :P
P.S. Oh...and they just happen to have in their rosters a plethora of notable historic figures (like most of the people on the US currency) don't believe me...check it out: http://www.famousuus.com so don't tell me you have to believe a certain way to be patriotic :)
Although it is true that many of the founding fathers were atheists. The two mentioned (Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin) did believe in a god, although neither were Christians.
Interesting how people defend being an atheist. My father was an atheist. I remember him on his death bed saying he had no will to live.. He was a millionare moneywise, a success in real estate, an Attorney by trade, but had a stroke and could not use his right arm (couldn't paint anymore).. his children didn't know how to relate to him because he could never show love. He always preached how being an atheist was right, but he died in shame. I prayed for him as much as I could.. It was very sad. The truth be known, many atheists fight tooth and nail to deny there is a power greater than them..
Life goes on, but death and taxes claims us all. Just depends if you look forward to something better in a spiritual afterlife.. Faith is so difficult for many intellectuals.. it's almost like they feel smarter or superior to God..
Bob
The only problem I have with atheists is that a lot of them expect everyone else to be atheist, too. Tolerance means that we accept EVERY religion (as long as it harms none).
Your dad was just distant and probably had assburgers bob. Nothing to do with being a non-believer.
@Anonymous (1:13 AM)
Some Atheists may want everyone else to be atheists, some may not. Just like some Christians, Muslims, etc. may want everyone else to be what they are..and some may not.
The difference is that in the history of civilization, MASSES of people have not been tortured, ostracized, and murdered in the name of "non-believing" whereas they have in the name of *insert your super being here*
Harm none indeed :P
I think that's the real issue here. It's not about what you believe or what you do not believe. It's about whether or not we allow ourselves to tolerate sanctioned "witch hunting" ...again!
I don't get why people can't smell the coffee ones they find out santa doesn't exist and they realize that their superiours used the bearded guy to control their behaviour.
What Is an agnostic?
An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
Are agnostics atheists?
No. An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.
Since you deny `God's Law', what authority do you accept as a guide to conduct?
An Agnostic does not accept any `authority' in the sense in which religious people do. He holds that a man should think out questions of conduct for himself. Of course, he will seek to profit by the wisdom of others, but he will have to select for himself the people he is to consider wise, and he will not regard even what they say as unquestionable. He will observe that what passes as `God's law' varies from time to time. The Bible says both that a woman must not marry her deceased husband's brother, and that, in certain circumstances, she must do so. If you have the misfortune to be a childless widow with an unmarried brother-in-law, it is logically impossible for you to avoid disobeying `God's law'.
How do you know what is good and what is evil? What does an agnostic consider a sin?
The Agnostic is not quite so certain as some Christians are as to what is good and what is evil. He does not hold, as most Christians in the past held, that people who disagree with the government on abstruse points of theology ought to suffer a painful death. He is against persecution, and rather chary of moral condemnation.
As for `sin', he thinks it not a useful notion. He admits, of course, that some kinds of conduct are desirable and some undesirable, but he holds that the punishment of undesirable kinds is only to be commended when it is deterrent or reformatory, not when it is inflicted because it is thought a good thing on its own account that the wicked should suffer. It was this belief in vindictive punishment that made men accept Hell. This is part of the harm done by the notion of `sin'.
Does an agnostic do whatever he pleases?
In one sense, no; in another sense, everyone does whatever he pleases. Suppose, for example, you hate someone so much that you would like to murder him. Why do you not do so? You may reply: "Because religion tells me that murder is a sin." But as a statistical fact, agnostics are not more prone to murder than other people, in fact, rather less so. They have the same motives for abstaining from murder as other people have. Far and away the most powerful of these motives is the fear of punishment. In lawless conditions, such as a gold rush, all sorts of people will commit crimes, although in ordinary circumstances they would have been law-abiding. There is not only actual legal punishment; there is the discomfort of dreading discovery, and the loneliness of knowing that, to avoid being hated, you must wear a mask with even your closest intimates. And there is also what may be called "conscience": If you ever contemplated a murder, you would dread the horrible memory of your victim's last moments or lifeless corpse. All this, it is true, depends upon your living in a law-abiding community, but there are abundant secular reasons for creating and preserving such a community.
I said that there is another sense in which every man does as he pleases. No one but a fool indulges every impulse, but what holds a desire in check is always some other desire. A man's anti-social wishes may be restrained by a wish to please God, but they may also be restrained by a wish to please his friends, or to win the respect of his community, or to be able to contemplate himself without disgust. But if he has no such wishes, the mere abstract concepts of morality will not keep him straight.
How does an agnostic regard the Bible?
An agnostic regards the Bible exactly as enlightened clerics regard it. He does not think that it is divinely inspired; he thinks its early history legendary, and no more exactly true than that in Homer; he thinks its moral teaching sometimes good, but sometimes very bad. For example: Samuel ordered Saul, in a war, to kill not only every man, woman, and child of the enemy, but also all the sheep and cattle. Saul, however, let the sheep and the cattle live, and for this we are told to condemn him. I have never been able to admire Elisha for cursing the children who laughed at him, or to believe (what the Bible asserts) that a benevolent Deity would send two she-bears to kill the children.
How does an agnostic regard Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and the Holy Trinity?
Since an agnostic does not believe in God, he cannot think that Jesus was God. Most agnostics admire the life and moral teachings of Jesus as told in the Gospels, but not necessarily more than those of certain other men. Some would place him on a level with Buddha, some with Socrates and some with Abraham Lincoln. Nor do they think that what He said is not open to question, since they do not accept any authority as absolute.
They regard the Virgin Birth as a doctrine taken over from pagan mythology, where such births were not uncommon. (Zoroaster was said to have been born of a virgin; Ishtar, the Babylonian goddess, is called the Holy Virgin.) They cannot give credence to it, or to the doctrine of the Trinity, since neither is possible without belief in God.
Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the media doesn't get it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsT8epfGlfg
@anonymous (long)
Agnotiscism and atheism refer to different things. While a gnostic person claims to know, an agnostic person claims not to know. While a theist has faith, an atheist has no faith in a deity. You can have faith but not claim to know --> Agnostic theist, just as you can lack faith and not claim to know --> Agnotsic atheist. Unless you are menally challenged, you are an agnostic. The question is whether you believe in skydaddy.
In my appliance repair business, I often do free repairs for some elderly people who really can't afford to pay.
I get a good feeling about doing that.
I came out of one old lady's house after doing that and the neighbor woman came out to talk "at' me.
She was once of those whose ass was several axe handles wide and a busybody.
She told me that she knew what I did for her neighbor and that I'de surely go to heaven.
I looked her in the eyes and told her that I was an atheist.
IMMEDIATELY she said, "You're going to go to hell."
I almost barfed trying to keep from laughing in her face.
I just got in my truck and left.
BTW-An atheist wman will moan your name when she 'gasms.
An agnostic woman will moan, "Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure."
A repiglican woman moans out her own name.
We invented God because we have such a hard time with the crushing responsibility of being at the top of the food chain.
It's a shame that polls show Atheists as the least likely to be elected to higher office. I'm actually doing an academic study out of the University of Missouri on Atheists, Secular Humnists, and Brights's experiences with potential discrimination because of their secularity. Check out Atheist Research Online if you'd like to add your experiences to the data.
Alright Harold Fowler, just because atheists do not believe in a book written thousands of years ago with a bunch of cooky stories does not mean we should be discriminated against in any way shape or form. We are not going to hell or heaven or anywhere else. We have life and that is it. We deserve to be treated fairly just like every other human being.
It comes down to morals and the strength to uphold your values. If you can tell right from wrong you don't fundamentally need religion, you need the strength to do what's right and the fortitude to see it for the life affirming values that creates in itself. I know I'm a good person and i do many things i don't even bother sharing with anyone because i don't need to confirm that i am a good person, i just know. These fundies think you can't be certain of your morals unless you give up your freewill to their God, which really makes you a slave, and i'd rather be free.
Someone openly supporting Obama complaining about a Republican? There's a shocker. My Spidey senses tell me this has a LOT more to do about politics than religion.
Republicans, and Dole in particular, have NO track record pertaining to legislation against atheists. NONE WHAT.SO.EVER.
Obama, on the other hand, promises tax cuts he can't provide, nor will give once he's in office. Democrats have NO TRACK RECORD On tax cuts.
That's the crux of this.
It's completely absurd that a bunch of people who believe there is a man in the sky who watches everything they do, have the ability to oppress those of us who take a more realistic view of life. I have to admit, I do not understand how otherwise reasonable people will swallow this myth hook, line and sinker. I can only guess they have never really thought about it.
I think the only reason people really believe in a God really has a lot to do with fear. Most people are afraid to think that there isn't a life beyond this, they're afraid of what happens when we die. They also cannot account for things like how the Earth was made and why we are here, so they look to religion. They look to God. It's no different than Native American stories about turtles inventing the world (although many act like it is). In all honesty, I can understand why people believe but if the stories from the Bible were in any other book, people would automatically write them off as fiction.
I think it's quite telling, that while you asked the question "what's wrong with being Atheist anyway?" you still had to use a disclaimer when it came to calling yourself one.
To James:
Just because this debate came out of a political story does not in any way mean that this is about politics. A lot of athiests have felt prosecuted, even if there is no policy against athiests there is still a great deal of intolerance.
And even if this did have to do with politics, it has NOTHING at all to do with tax breaks. Give it up, election is tomorrow. So stop tlaking about democrats and republicans and start talking about this issue or go somewhere else.
Wow. Thanks everyone for all the great comments and for the conversation. I'm a non-theist (weak atheist) Zen Buddhist.
Buddhism is often said to not even be a religion but a philosophy and that is probably where I lean. It is often called the "religion of no religion." There is no god, no satan, no sin (rather less helpful actions as they are called) no commandments but recommendations.
I don't believe in a god but I can't say for certain so I guess in a way I'm agnostic. However, I'd say I'm about 99.99999% sure that there is no god. In the end I just don't really concern myself about a god. I live my life as if there is none and I'm pretty damn happy.
I grew up Mormon and I'm much happier now than I was when I was in that church. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with Mormons but it certainly wasn't for me. And I don't think that there is only way way to live a happy life.
The point in my view as many have said already is tolerance. I really don't want to fight Christians and others. However I will stand up for what I believe (or not believe in this case) if confronted.
I'm tired of being run over by believers and told I'm an evil person, etc. I find it weird that Christians think that they are the minority and the ones being the most persecuted when they live in a country here in America that is like 80-90% Christian. I think it's the martyr complex.
Anonymous:
It wasn't a disclaimer in the sense that I'd be ashamed to be called a hard atheist. It's that atheism comes in varying degrees and styles not unlike all the different versions of Christianity.
If you've read Richard Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" you know that he ranks atheism in varying degrees from what is called hard atheism to soft atheism. I am one who believes that the world and beliefs are not clear and cut, black and white. There are many shades of gray in this existence.
These 'People' are guilty of hate crimes against Atheists and should be stopped. It is un-American! (In the true sense!) And I am sure there are a lot more of us than they have the brains to realize. This is definitely going to come to a head in Americas' near-future.
But our retched government will not address it at all. This issue will only escalate.
@Harold Fowler.
Be more specific. Which Hell are we going to?
so many stupid people so little time. Religious people are, in general, stupid.
I don't think there is anything wrong with being an atheist either. America is a melting pot of cultures and religions, and I believe the First Amendment guarantees the the right to practice or not practice any religion you want.
However, as a resident of NC where Dole is from, I think she is just trying to appeal to her constituents. While there are a good number of non-religious or non-Christians that do live in our state, more people here would identify themselves as Christians. Elizabeth Dole just wants to keep their votes. But that doesn't make the ads right.
Just another reason to dislike the Christian right.
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
-Luke 19:27
@Pastor Frankie
That sounds a lot like something a Radical Religious Extremist ...AKA Terrorist would say or subscribe to.
Any religion other than Christianity is chastised for similar beliefs. Are you a terrorist, Pastor Frankie?
Pastor:
That kind of talk incites the very violence that Jesus spoke out against. I suggest you reread the New Testament. The general attitude of it is one of peace toward those different than you.
Pastor,
How come the Vatican Bible (you know that really old one) does not have any reference to a reserection?
Because the Cristian faith is based on BS.
Instead of going to bible study you should study the history of your "book of books" to learn of the hoax that you have been pranked obout.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
I don't understand why you feel so threatened or bullied.
How can you be afraid by people who still believe in supernatural nowadays.
This is one of my favorite quotes on the subject of god:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurus.
if you'd like to contribute in a debate regarding this topic, please go to http://stuffididlastnight.com
Atheism is a religion by definition. Most people are so stupid they don't realize that Atheism is based (entirely) on a faith based belief. The belief that God absolutely does not exist. Agnostics on the other hand simply aren't sure if God exists.
Agnostics aren't religious wackos because they hold a position based on logic, not belief. Atheism is a dogmatic religion, by definition since it is entirely based on the faith/belief that God absolutely does not exist.
I'm not agnostic or an atheist, like Einstein I think there is a God. But I oppose all organized religions, including Atheism.
I would love to see the day that people finally started treating Atheists like Christians, etc. Anyone who knows Atheists well realizes they have the same kind of warped evangelical agendas.
Im an atheist, and damned proud of it. I have to say, it just seems rational for atheists to be in charge politically. When you thin that the rapture is coming to get you (as some believers do, of course) then there is very little incentive to make this world better. A rational, secular leader would be making decisions based on DATA IN THIS WORLD. Wow would that be cool...
@ Brien:
You are neither Athiest nor Agnostic, yet you pretend to know all about Athiests. I would really like to know what my agenda is, since you know it better than me. I am an Athiest, I agree that it is a religion because it is based on the disbelief of a God. But it is wrong to call it organized, because it is not organized.
It is also wrong to say that "Anyone who knows Atheists well realizes they have the same kind of warped evangelical agendas" because this is just not completely true. This is a hasty generalization, otherwise known as a logical fallacy.
All I aim to do is to know that I do not believe in God, to live my life based upon the morals I see fit, and to have a good life. How is that a warped evangelical agenda? Furthermore, I do not go to church with athiests, nor do I have meetings with them, therefore Athiesm is not organized.
Know your facts before commenting next time, thanks.
There's nothing wrong with being Athiest, in fact, I'd say one of the best leaders would come from an Atheist/Agnostic, because your mind isn't clouded with religion.
And to Harold Fowler:
Screw you. There should be no religi-tards in any government. Period.
As an atheist I don't see another atheist getting elected until there are a whole lot more atheists in the country. I accept and am not bothered by that fact. The president is supposed to be representative of the people and we live in a Christian country. Nothing else needs to enter into the discussion really.
Kristian, you are right, IMHO. We pray to our "God" but a BILLION Chinese do not, are they all going to hell? Or should we all have our own beliefs and respect others? And... be good to one another, and exercise common sense, and take care of our neighbors? Religion has fueled most of the wars on this planet, and most religions are about peace? ...rather about who is right.. Can't we all be content, good, and treat each other well?
Anyone read "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris? Let me know what you thought. I'm thinking about reading it.
No, no...NO!
Athiests are supposed to be so darned logical, yet you will gobble up the seemingly non-sensical "it is a religion".
I do not believe aliens visit this planet on a regular basis. So, therefore, I am a believer in alien visitations? ...by abstentia or something? Huh? Am I just missing the nuances of the arguments?
When did the dismisal of a belief system become implicit acceptance of the system of beliefs?
I might be agnostic...I could be athiest...I will leave it up to you folks to come up with the definitions. I do know: I am a human who believes in treating all others in the manner I want to be treated.
Right now, I would pray someone would hit me with the enlightenment stick...
Make this argument with any other system of belief. Anything. Please. I want to understand because right now, "And the lord said to Abraham..." makes a LOT more sense than "atheism is a religion."
@ Alexa - You said:
"(p.s. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin- in fact, most of the founding fathers, were athiests)"
Actually NO. Quite a few of the Founding Fathers of the USA were Deists, followers of Deism. Deism is the belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason alone, without dependence on revelation.
There is a distinct difference between Deism and Atheism.
Atheism is can be defined as either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods/goddesses, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or non-theism.
I just wanted to clear that up.
Now, to put in my two cents on marriage (since it was brought up):
I don't understand why people who are non-religious and/or homosexual feel they must have the word "marriage" on paper to be joined with another human being. Maybe this isn't the majority of the non-religious and/or homosexual people's feelings on the matter, but it seems to me this argument is all about the religious word "marriage" itself instead of the rights associated with the actual legal documentation of a civil union.
Why can't it just be called a "civil union" and have the same legal rights a married couple has (ie: visitation in the hospital, etc)? That way all religious people, and everyone else both get what they want.
By the way, in most Christian religions (not sure about others), a "marriage" is not recognized unless it is performed by an ordained priest or minister and/or is performed in a church. So those who were not joined by an ordained priest or minister and/or in a church, you have what is called a legal civil union.
It is organized religion that determined marriage is between a man and a woman only. By the way, in medieval times, the ceremony of a union of a man and a woman was a sacrament of the church.
To the above guy who said Marriage is a religious institution between a man and a woman...the Church has nothing to do with marriage anymore, case law has established it as a civil right that no longer needs a church to validate it. People can just go down to the courthouse to get a marriage license and couples married in a church have to go to the court to get their license signed anyway. Keep your hate speech to yourself because I feel like that's what you're getting at.
When you say "why do they feel the need to have the word marriage," it's the same reason you feel the need. A marriage license has financial benefits that accompany it, it's not just a warm fuzzy feeling of being married. Also, why shouldn't someone have a marriage license if they are living together and doing all the same things that people who are MARRIED are doing? Same argument used against interracial marriage, didn't fly then, won't fly now.
The reason it can't be called a civil union is because it's not a civil union, it's a marriage. You can't take away someone's right to marry just because you don't feel comfortable with it, it doesn't affect you. Churches can't bash Jews anymore either even though the bible says Jews are evil, what makes you think they should have a right to bash homosexuals too?
Now my word on the church...They've got everyone running around scared afraid that they're going to go to hell if they don't do exactly what the church says. That's the real reason why Prop 8 passed, the Churches told their members that they would go to Hell if they didn't vote yes on it because everyone who condones Homosexuality supposedly goes to Hell. History repeats itself, the Church gets the government wrapped around it's little finger and there goes freedom. Empires have fallen because of this. Religion brought down the Roman Empire.
On a final note, do Atheists have the right to marry too or do they have to have "civil unions" because they're not going to a church and a "priest" isn't presiding over their ceremony?
I am from England and I lost out on a job opportunity because it was an American owner who said he would only employ Christians.
Luckily in England religion does seem to be dying out, I don't know any Christians and only a few Muslims of my age. Although the older generation still seem to believe it.
I think we're in a difficult transition period where people are starting to believe in evolution rather than talking snakes and arcs packed with 2 of every animal.
Remember a few hundred years ago people were tortured, killed even burnt alive by Christians for not believing so we haven't got it too bad.
1.Atheism - Celebrate reason! Sleep in on Sunday mornings.
2.Atheism – Celebrate reason
3.There probably isn't a God so stop worrying & enjoy your life.
Which of these 3 slogans do you like best?
In Australia the 'Atheist Foundation of Australia' is trying to put a slogan onto buses.
Check them out www.atheistfoundation.org.au/
Julian:
Sorry to hear that you were victim to these crazy American fundamentalists. I'm embarrassed with that kind of image presented to the world.
You're right about being in a painful transition period. I hope though we get out of it soon and be a saner more open society like in Europe.
hell is part of the issue. atheists don't necessarily believe there would be such a place. you can't use part of a different religious standpoint to prove anything wrong with another standpoint. it gets you absolutely nowhere. it's like telling someone they can't go over to jack's house because jim's parents' friend's goldfish can say a cuss word. they aren't related. your religion's beliefs do not say anything about atheists.
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